Curse

Ellena · Jun 11, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

This is not intended as a flame or a trolling attempt, but I'll open my post by admiting that I am one of the people who generally pushes assassins out of my groups. I don't know what assassin brings to the table, except for a lot of bad players who drain valuable monking resources. I also don't know how to tell if an assassin is at least minimally compitent. Because of that I take other classes that I actually can predict. I now that it's hard to find a group for assassins, but until I'm able to be reasonably sure that the assassin I am adding will pull his weight, I'll keep inviting other classes ( or even henchmen).

so, here's what woud make me change my mind ( as well, I expect most other people's minds.):

1. a list of 1-3 things that assassisn do better than any one else or extremely valuable thigns that they do almost as well, and an explanation of why I'd want an assassin doing it instead of whatever classes normally do it.

2. the names of the cookie cutter builds ( PUGS are all about the cookie cutter :P ) that let assassins shine at the above task(s), as well as a basic summary how they work.

3. a few questions and answers to ask an assassin that whow whether or not they are any good. ( ie what is your build and how do you see your role in the group?)

anyhow, those 3 things would make it so that I know what I can expect from an assassin (and how to weed out the majority of complete incompitants) and thus fit them into my groups when appropriate.

mongrel · Jun 11, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

i would also like this answered - i have completed prophs once and factions twice with a Rt and a W, but i just cant get my assassin to work. they just seem weak and i know i'm not supposed to be a warrior, but what am i? i dont get this class. people say your meant to strike - hit and run, but i just dont see how - also energy management seems to be insufficient for the class.

lord_shar · Jun 11, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

I play an end-game PvE assassin and have made a couple of successful builds that can pull their weight in end-game areas. However, the present assassin is strictly balanced for PvP only at the expense of PvE. For PvP, they're perfectly fine, but for PvE, a number of issues are present

1) insufficient self healing
2) insufficient defensive stances and enchantments
3) sub-par armor for melee class
4) only 2 worthwhile elites: AoD and Temple Strike, and the latter has an unreasonable recharge time of 25 seconds.
5) dramatic drop in critical hit percentages at higher level encounters.

...and many more issues that present themselves once you start entering L28+ zones.

There's a steep learning curve involved with mastering the assassin in its present form, but most people won't get past this curve due to the over-balancing for PvP at the expense of PvE.

PS: Sorry everyone, not trying to rain on our parade, but ANET really needs to address these PvE class issues. If we don't acknowlege that they exist, we'll never see them corrected.

Faith the Insane · Jun 11, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

They need to beat the game too

wilebill · Jun 12, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

"There's a steep learning curve involved with mastering the assassin in its present form, but most people won't get past this curve due to the over-balancing for PvP at the expense of PvE." -- Exactly right, Shar.

My assassin finished the storyline missions in Factions, henching a lot of them because I could not get into groups. Eventually, I took ranger as secondary, config'd as a Barrage Archer, and even got a Dire Tiger for a pet. Sans pet, my Barrage Archer solo henched Raisu Palace quite easily. And as a Barrage Archer I found it easier to get into player groups.

For the acid test, I took my assassin to the Crystal Desert in Tyria. I found that daggers will work well against some critters out there, griffins, sand giants, devourers, hydras. But anything with armor? Disaster. So, back to Barrage Archer mode.

But in the end, for PvE, I have to ask why I bother with a "Barrage Archer?" Really my Ranger can do the same thing and much more besides. And, it is true that the Assassin is simply more vulnerable than a Ranger, who is quite sturdy by comparison.

Ellena · Jun 12, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

so, the short answer is that ( except for pvp) assassins suck and not wanting them in a PUG is perfectly reasonable? That stinks for you guys, it really does.

Lord Deathknight · Jun 12, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Personally I think that all an assassin needs is an inherent evade/block ability that could coincide with the critical strikes.

Have Spells, skills, hexes and attacks that effect that directly target the assassin miss. This would give the assassin a better chance to survive an attack or bypass something that would normally be a defense i.e. throws dirt, blurred vision, blinding flash. The counter would be if the assassin does get hit then it would carry the same effect now, quickly dead. I would have it as a % chance or it would work if it was a hit-miss ratio.

The % chance does not need to be that high as the rangers evade skill either. like 20% at max with runes (16)

Another thing would be the able to either carry your attack chain to another target or if that target dies have it refresh even it its at an energy loss
Even in most two part attack builds you’re vulnerable as you wait on skill recharge and normal none skilled attacks do little damage to most targets.

Of course this defence would not work on things that effect an area even thou it does require a target, ie 100 blades, cyclone axe, unholy feast, fire storm, fire ball, Barrage ect. and things that would be cause and effect, ie. sheild bash, holy wraith,

lord_shar · Jun 12, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellena

so, the short answer is that ( except for pvp) assassins suck and not wanting them in a PUG is perfectly reasonable? That stinks for you guys, it really does.

Yep, sad but true. That's why I go to my warrior, necro, or ranger whenever I want to group in any high level zone like the Deep or Urgoz's Warrens. You won't see assassins being welcomed in any of those areas in PUG's any time soon due to their extraordinarily high death rates. ANET undermined the assassin's few self-healing abilities (shadow refuge) and notable elites (Temple Strike + AoD). These coupled with the poor melee armor equals one sorry PvE grouping class.

Crim_Vos_Telvannis · Jun 12, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Yep, sad but true. That's why I go to my warrior, necro, or ranger whenever I want to group in any high level zone like the Deep or Urgoz's Warrens. You won't see assassins being welcomed in any of those areas in PUG's any time soon due to their extraordinarily high death rates. ANET undermined the assassin's few self-healing abilities (shadow refuge) and notable elites (Temple Strike + AoD). These coupled with the poor melee armor equals one sorry PvE grouping class.

Yup. Its pretty sad that a ranger is viewed as "hardy" compared to an assassin.

Red Locust · Jun 12, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Technically, for the most efficient PvE group you need warriors, necros and monks, so why should you let any of the other 5 classes join your group?

PvE isn't so hard that you need to stick exclusively to the best classes to win.

lord_shar · Jun 12, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Technically, for the most efficient PvE group you need warriors, necros and monks, so why should you let any of the other 5 classes join your group?

PvE isn't so hard that you need to stick exclusively to the best classes to win.

Hmm, based on the above comment, I'm guessing you haven't seen Urgoz or Kanaxai yet?

Just a wild guess...

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Jun 12, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

i completed the game on my assassin, to tel you the truth, it was the msot challenging thing i have ever done in my life on gw, heres a challenge for you folks, GO THROUGH THE GAME AS AN ASSASSIN AND ALWAYS USE HUMAN GROUPS, whoever could complete this task withotu ever using henchies, i would like to congradulate them.

XvArchonvX · Jun 12, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Here is what I thought an assasin was supposed to be good for:

1) Be able to evade and escape enemies/battles quickly

2) Ability to deal large amounts of damage to a single target quickly

At first I generally percieved an assasin as a class that was supposed to solve it's defensive problem by having superior evasive skills that allowed an assasin to jump in, take out a target, then jump out. Wash rinse repeat. However, all the decent evasive/teleporting skills have recharge times that are ridiculous for the type of PvE situations faced and make them not even worth bringing. Almost all of them require at least 30 second recharge if not more.

In terms of damage, I think assasins fill this mark to margianal degree. There are some good high damage attacks, but the low base damage of the daggers makes them essentially dependant on the attack skills.

A large problem I see with assasins is their energy management. The 4 pip regen is nice, but the storage empties very quickly considering that nearly every legitamate attack requires 5 energy leaving little to nothing for defensive skills. Zealous daggers to me seem almost as a necessity.

What it all boils down to me is this: An assasin simply is an inferior tank for lack of better term in the world of PvE. A tank can really do just about equal damage, but take a whole lot more damage.

I hope to see A-net give this class some buffs...

carbajac · Jun 12, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

I agree, assassins are tough guys to play. I don't think ANet can really raise the armor on the assassin...maybe a little. In PvP, assassins hit hard enough as it is, give them higher armor, who knows what they could do. But as far as PvE is concerned I've been in so many groups that voice up real quick when an assassin wants in the group because they don't take well to damage. Energy is a problem because if an assassin spends his energy on defense, he will be struggling to pull of his attack chain. Yeah, I don't know, players or ANet better figure out something for the PvE assassin to mean anything to a group.

Opeth11 · Jun 12, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

75 base armor? That could be an improvement to assassins greatly. Mix that in with a +5 Armor dagger and you've got Warrior base defence.

Honestly, I actually have taken assassins into my groups. Never more than one though. I never really noticed spikes of damage often, and our monks couldn't hold the assassin up long enough to see what they can really do.

I am seeing less and less assassins everyday, and with good reason too. They are nothing short of a bantha fodder.

Killmur · Jun 12, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I thought playing a Pyro was tough enough, just trying to play a energy guzzling assasin is well 10X worse! I am plain and simple through with assasins until A-Net fixes the class. I will take a Pyro over a Assasin any day of the week. I can deal with a Pyro's energy going low but when dealing with a melee class that heavly relies on it then that makes my job much tougher.

Opeth11 · Jun 12, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Well, you could always be part Necromancer and use Offering of Blood. But then again, the 20% health sacrifice hurts.

..but then again the Assassin will die in a few seconds anyways..

Nightwish · Jun 12, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Obviously assassins not that durable but for my groups, I generally let 1-2 in, no more than that though. I have one assassin myself,hence, i know whats it like to get into PUGs.

I think many players are blindly stereotyping all assassins into one incompetent group, regardless of how they perform. Seriously...having an assassin in your group is not going to cause party wipe unless its the player's attitude itself.

EDIT:

Regarding to the questions in OP, the advantages of assassins over other classes are most likely to be:

1. Mobility
2. Single target damage

Unfortunately, both aspects are not crucial in pve, which focus more on durability and mass spread damage. Blame pve, not the assassin class

Shred Dread · Jun 12, 2006, 10:59 AM // 10:59

I have an A/Mo, and I don't really consider myself incompetent (hope others feel the same way about me hahaha). I also disagree with the statement made earlier that assassins are just inferior versions of tanks. As many other people have said before me, it's very difficult to compare the two because they bring different things to battle, and are meant to do so. As someone has said in another thread that I've read about assassins, Asassins are more like melee mesmers than warriors. Try to think of assassins as mesmers that inflict all damage as "touch skills."

I am also tired of hearing people say that assassins cannot go into combat. Unless it's an assassin with only deadly arts or something, the assassin HAS to go into combat to be of any use. I do understand this belief however. I've seen far too many assassins use Death's Charge to get ahead of the group, and then die before help arrives.

I also hear that monks waste time and energy healing assassins who are almost always on the verge of death. My fire nuker elementalist is a much more popular choice for groups, yet I believe I die much more often on that character than I do on my assassin, and trust me when I say I am VERY competent at playing the elementalist. Most elementalists die quickly with their relatively pitiful armor rating, especially when faced with a tank. However, this class has its uses, much like any other. So now, I am going to attempt to answer this thread's request and show the assassin's uses.

1. -Assassins can cause conditions and hexes on enemies like mesmers, but can take a lot more damage.
-Assassins can help on the front lines to keep enemies away from casters.
-Assassins can spike damage using combos.

2. I'm not really sure of any cookie-cutter builds at the moment, because the class is really too new, but I'll share the fact that I keep my A/Mo alive by using vigorous spirit (and no I do not try to tank)

3. Try asking the assassin what attribute(s) he uses from his secondary profession, and how many skills he uses from that attribute. For example, you probably do not want an A/E who uses dagger mastery, and fire magic spells like meteor shower. Be especially wary when you see a A/Mo. While I myself have an A/mo, that class combo is often a danger sign pointing to the fact that the assassin is one of those that try to tank. Try asking what kinds of monk skills the assassin uses. If he uses a lot, then that assassin is probably a no-no.

fb2000 · Jun 12, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

in pve, id only take an assassin to maybe keep the caster ranks safe..
in pvp they are quite decent pressure makers, with all conditions and the occasional knockdown

they are always quite fragile, and tbh, very few ppl have an idea how to play this class, so I only take people I know can play assassin